As pointed out by Adrian Sutton in one of the comments, this post was breaking X NDA about Developer Previews (which I initially thought is about distribution only), so unfortunately I had to take it down for the moment. I really have to apologize to you for this unfortunate action.
Update: I have figured out that if I don’t use any names, I still can leave my personal opinion here:
I’m usually calm and trying to understand the decisions some are making. But this is f%^$% unbelievable: (bip) has released a developer preview of (bip), but it is meant only for version bip or later. Are they kidding me? A guy has been able to build (bip) by his own, has packaged it for both (bip) and (bip), and (bip) comes out 1 month later with a (bip) version only? That’s incredible arrogant.
There’s even more: the release is only for 64bit (bip). If today would be April 1st, I would say that this is one of the best jokes. But it is not, and so this makes it one of the worst (and sour) jokes.
Posted by: Alex Popescu (aka the_mindstorm)
17 responses to “Unbelievable: (bip) releases …”
Apple haven’t released Java 6, they released a developer preview of Java 6 – there is no reason to believe the minimum requirements won’t change.
Additionally, the preview release is under an NDA which you’ve broken by this post.
Thanks for pointing out to the NDA. I’ve had to remove the original post (if some are breaking the rules — even if only common sense rules — I don’t have to do it too).
And if you’ve read the original post, I was clearly mentioning a dev preview.
The leading edge of the Java community got impatient and ported over an X11 version of Java to tide them over, and you’re saying Apple is arrogant for requiring a more recent OS version for their entirely native implementation? Should Apple not release a better integrated version of Java because some guy made an X11 port? Should they not use features in their new OS simply because the X11 version doesn’t require the new OS?
There’s no way to win with some people.
Adam, I think you got it all wrong. What is arrogant is releasing “something” very late. Moreover, targeting this very late thing to just a small fraction of the intended/interested audience.
It is just as you want to get a car (now), and the sale person is offering you a BMX (not BMW) in a month instead. If you are happy with this, then I will not argue with you.
I would definitely expect the best integration, because this is the reason I’ve payed their products. And unfortunately, for the moment in this field they are just not delivering.
Developer previews end up being pushed eventually to the general community, and there’s a good probability that it’s not done yet. Some of the limitations listed may not be final.
Client-side Java 6 apps just don’t have near the penetration needed for Apple to rush this or delay an OS release. For the Java developers who like their Macs, there’s the open source Java 6 that the community put together to tide everyone over until the real release.
I can understand some of the frustration but I don’t see how this boils down to anything other than impatience. Nobody else has the level of native Java integration that OS X does, and that’s going to take some extra time to bring in line with the new version. Apple’s development resources are not infinite and they probably see a much better return on investment by improving their core technologies, especially when Java 5 still works fine for most applications.
> For the Java developers who like their Macs, there’s the open source Java 6 that the community put together to tide everyone over until the real release.
I hope you are not saying that they have postponed their work due to the existence of this alternative. This would be too funny.
>I can understand some of the frustration but I don’t see how this boils down to anything other than impatience.
In fact, it is all about keeping the promises. Just search the archives for their past statements and promises in this field.
I agree I am impatient. Having to wait 1 year to get it — and probably some more, makes me impatient (and probably a bit grumpy 🙂 ).
OK, since all of the original arguments about why this was a bad situation were dismissed, let me give a try at a different set of reasons this is completely unacceptable. It all comes down to one date: December 2006, (the 11th I believe).
Over ONE YEAR AGO Java 6 was released for all of Sun’s supported platforms and now you’re starting to hear serious talk about what will be in Java 7 and when we will see it. Apple did not rush out an X11 only version analogous to the third party efforts we saw recently, just to cover the needs of developers. No, they’ve dragged their heels ever since on releasing anything. Then, when Leopard shipped without it, they stonewalled completely on information and removed preview releases from their website.
Ignore whatever you like about Leopard vs. Tiger, 64 bit vs. 32, Intel vs. PPC. I’m talking about a freaking year to even get out something that they might get around to releasing or, then again, maybe they will reconsider again and it won’t come out. Whichever it is, they will have successfully put the brakes on any momentum from third parties to release versions which work.
If Apple is truly hurting for developer resources so much that it takes them a year to produce this version, they should release the source for all of their improvements so they can be incorporated into an open source version. There are more than enough developers to make sure that OS X Java releases keep pace with Sun’s releases if they don’t have to craft all the sound code, Cocoa integration, etc. over again.
And once again, why don’t you go bitch with Sun, that is the one who actually needs to champion Java? Apple has to need for Java, live with it. If they eventually release some, it is just out of good will because there is zero return of investment for Apple.
That’s another reason there is “OPEN SOURCE” right? So you don’t have to wait for a company’s good will. Oh wait, Sun FAILED to open source Java earlier, now that’s the result: Java developers LOCKED DOWN by Suns inefficiency in releasing a good open source JDK. How come no one is bitching with Sun for they being so late releasing every bit of the Java core technologies?
If they did so, we would only be ‘port install jdk_1.6.0’ away from it. Duh
How did the original post break any NDA? The information about the Java 6 developer preview as well as its minimum requirements are posted publicly at http://developer.apple.com/java/, which states quite plainly:
“The Java SE 6 release for Leopard is targeted at Java developers. This version of Java for Mac OS X requires an Intel-based Mac capable of running 64-bit applications, including computers with Core 2 Duo processors and any Mac Pro computer.”
From what I can tell from the (blip)s in the original post, nothing was divulged that wasn’t available on the public URL mentioned above. The warnings about disclosure only come after logging into the ADC site (which anybody can do anyway).
It’s difficult to see how you are breaking an NDA. Why ? *Apple* has already announced their Preview Release. If you go to
They announce it. They announce who it is targeted to (64 bit Leopard). It’s hard to break an NDA when they have already announced it.
Charles and Joe: thanks for your comments.
On top of the Java page there is an NDA paragraph. Adrian made it clear that I should re-read it, and indeed my original post was somehow breaking it (as it mentioned: “public disclosure of information”).
However, I do think that my re-post was not breaking it, still being clear about my feelings.
@Akita: you are probably right. But, neither Sun, nor BEA or IBM have ever made any promises related to supporting this platform, while A has been promising a lot of things. This is a root cause of my frustration.
It is indeed a good question: why isn’t Sun taking over its Java role and start supporting this platform. I think I may have an answer to this: because A is not disclosing any information about their platform future. What I think may work here is a partnership, but unfortunately I don’t see this happening very soon.
re: Sun opensourcing Java platform
I see you have a very strong opinion on this, but I don’t :-), mainly because I don’t see anybody providing a better alternative to what Sun is currently offering for the next couple of years.
Is this the root cause of the problem I’ve been exposing? Frankly, I don’t think so. Why isn’t A opensourcing theirs, so that they may get the help of the community? Unfortunately, I don’t think this would really help, and this is way I wasn’t even mentioning it in my post as an alternative.
For me the most important thing — and it looks like I’ve done a lazy job making it clear — is that you shouldn’t make promises if you don’t intend to keep them. That’s all it counts for me. If A, would have said: hey, we are short on resources, and we have big plans about our OS and most probably we will not be able to get this thing done for the next year, I wouldn’t have a big problem. But they didn’t. They went out loud making a lot of promises. None kept so far :-(.
I see no NDA paragraph on http://developer.apple.com/java/
Your original post is definitely not breaking it…
Good post though. Apple’s handling of Java 6 has been abysmal, and the more exposure the issue gets the better.
Although this might seem to be a stretch, I think it is relevant that I couldn’t find anything anywhere about Sun’s support or lack of it for Java on Microsoft Windows Server 2008.
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Many of my colleagues use bip for bip-development on the bip, but the bip-boss let them down, and now they are stuck in bib-land with the fucking bip-machine, without being able to use the bip version of their main working environment. But hey, they can always create nice looking presentations in bip, not to mention the fancy looking iBip tool suite. I am lucky that I didn’t jump to bip myself … 🙂
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