… the best ORM in the world (on Gavin’s interview)

I just finished reading the Gavin King‘s interview published on Javafree.com.br. I am using Hibernate for quite a while and I must say I am very happy with it. I have even taken a look (not so deep) to the upcomming Hibernate3, but I still found myself unable to say:

The Hibernate3 core (currently in alpha) is the most powerful ORM engine in the world – and it will take a little while for others to catch up.

, when I know that

Um, traditionally, no, we did not pay that much attention – I was much more comfortable being guided by request from users, than by “what the other guys got”.

Even if Gavin and Hibernate have always had their fanatics(*) [smile/], I am wondering if

However, more recently, we have done some feature-by-feature competitive evaluations of the two leading commercial ORM solutions, just to make sure we didn’t miss anything.

was done the same way the Microsoft vs IBM solution comparison was done. I haven’t seen the results published anywhere and I am wondering which are those 2 leading solutions that have been compaired. I have seen the same statements coming from the TopLink team so I will not jump to a conclusion so quickly and I will wait to read at least the comparison results.
On the same direction I have found out that the guys/companies developing non-RDBMS solutions would have to leave their business:

How do you see alternatives to relational databases, like XML and OO databases, or Prevayler?
We don’t see them šŸ˜‰

I will give credit to the [blink/] in the end of the sentence and hope that not every other solution will stop their existance and just jump into the RDBMS field immediately.
When SUN has announced the initiative to create a common spec out of JDO and EJB3 I was wondering which will be the future of JDO. Gavin’s opinion is

We don’t see any future for JDO.

, but I am thinking that this future will be the same for Hibernate 2 users as for JDO users. Gavin’s feelings about JDO have been expressed also on some other occasions. What is Craig Russell’s opinion on this?
Finally, I find myself asking if Gavin expressed his true feelings on these or rather it was a somehow furious interview?

Disclaimer: do not consider the bad meaning of fanatic word.

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13 Comments

Filed under personalog

13 responses to “… the best ORM in the world (on Gavin’s interview)

  1. Emmanuel Bernard

    Comparison have been made with Toplink and Solarmetric Kodo. H2 missed some features for legacy DB mapping and some ‘marketing’ features too: H3 now have them plus new ones *really* useful.

  2. the_mindstorm

    Thanks for the reply Emmanuel. While I see the comparison with TopLink, I am not sure what relevance brings the comparison with a JDO implementation as Kodo JDO. Maybe this helped only for bringing together more features and not to determine that Hibernate3 is the best on the shelf.

  3. Anonymous

    Sounds like Gavin’s been learning from Mr. Fleury

  4. the_mindstorm

    I have tried my best not to bring the discussion this way, but I can say that somewhere in my head I realized this too (even if I hope not to be true, because I really appreciate the work they have done).

  5. Emmanuel Bernard

    Please, just check *for real* the huge amount of effort that has been provided into Hibernate3.
    Check the feature list, ask yourself if this stuff is useful for you, check if those features are available elsewhere.
    Check how Hibernate3 comply to EJB3 early draft

  6. the_mindstorm

    Emmanuel I am not very sure what do you mean by [quote]check *for real*[/quote]. In case you have in mind to evaluate the new features, I guess you know that this is not a finger-snap away thing. Just looking from one side of the problem will not give you the truth. You got to imagine the best scenarios in which to evaluate every feature and then to do the comparison with other solutions. This requires lots of work and time – and time is not one of my strongest points, so I think I will leave this to others (surely I will be happy to participate in such a feature by feature evaluation and comparison [blink/]).
    On the other hand, maybe I wasn’t clear enough: I am not arguing on the power of Hibernate, but rather on the mode it was expressed. Afaik afirmations like “the best”, “the worst”, “no good” must be backed up with some insights (so I still wait to see the methodology and reports).

  7. Anonymous

    I don’t see what is so difficult to understand here:

    (1) we used to only pay attention to users, not competitors
    (2) in HB3, we went back, studied our competitors, understood their feature sets, and added features that we were missing (useful, and some less useful)
    (3) in addition, we added functionality that other competing solutions do not have, such as features for handling temporal/regional/permissioned data (a hugely significant development in ORM technology), the ability to be able to provide handwritten SQL *everywhere*, some sophisticated inheritance mappings that others do not support, etc.

    I am thus quite confident in saying that, at this time, HB3 is more sophisticated than other solutions out there. This is my considered opinion after spending some time studying the issue. Now, you are perfectly free to disagree, and free to show examples of how other solutions are able to do things that HB3 cannot do (I would appreciate this very much, since we could then add them to the TODO list). However, I am guessing that you have *not* done any serious competitive evaluation here, and have probably not downloaded and used HB3 and hence your attack on me is uninformed.

    Furthermore, trying to blame The Devil Of Java (Marc Fleury) for the fact that I am proud of the product that we have built, and prepared to say this in public is just very silly.

    So, unless you can actually show some evidence that what I have claimed is not true, I think it might even be reasonable to ask that you retract this personal attack on me. But I’m not holding my breath, of course. šŸ˜‰

  8. the_mindstorm

    I would like to find out what do you consider a personal attack? The fact that [quote] I am using Hibernate for quite a while and I must say I am very happy with it.[/quote]? The fact that I am questioning about how the afirmation “the best” was reached? I hope not, as this is by no means an attack. Maybe the fact that I see the same future for JDO users as for H2 users? I still believe this is not an attack, cause it is just a fact: they will use an older (or not-uptodate) solution. Or perhaps the fact that: [quote]I am not arguing on the power of Hibernate, but rather on the mode it was expressed. Afaik afirmations like “the best”, “the worst”, “no good” must be backed up with some insights (so I still wait to see the methodology and reports).[/quote]? Please decide which one of the aboves (or maybe something I was missing) attacked you. I would go the other way around and say that if you have passed through the whole reading you will find that this is really offending: [quote]However, I am guessing that you have *not* done any serious competitive evaluation here, and have probably not downloaded and used HB3 and hence your attack on me is uninformed.[/quote].

  9. Anonymous

    Whatever. I’m not interested in continuing this discussion. We could pick apart, parse and re-parse each others words for the rest of the day but honestly I don’t give a shit. Got better things to do than argue in blog comments.

  10. the_mindstorm

    I hope that soon I will be able to find out your insights on the evaluations you have made ;-). Good luck with the dev!

  11. Anonymous

    mindstorm you’re a tool

  12. Anonymous

    Just want to be clear that the last comment wasn’t posted by me or anyone else on Hibernate team, its a different “anonymous”. Stupid comments system. Gavin.

  13. the_mindstorm

    Gavin even if our discussion had reached an unpleasant moment (at some point) *I was and am sure* that nobody from Hibernate team would post such meaningless comments. Thanks!

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